Can the Aztec Empire learn and reuse Conquistador technology?

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In this alternate history, Christopher Columbus makes landfall in Central America, after passing south of Florida and sailing through the Gulf of Mexico, arriving right on the doorstep of the Aztec Empire.

The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.

Could the Aztecs do something useful with this new technological knowledge; applying and reusing it for their gain, becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?

In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.

EDIT: To address some points:

I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.

This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.

I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.

The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
57 mins ago

add a comment |

up vote
19
down vote

favorite

The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.

In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.

EDIT: To address some points:

I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.

This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.

I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.

The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
57 mins ago

add a comment |

up vote
19
down vote

favorite

The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.

In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.

EDIT: To address some points:

I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.

This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.

I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.

The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.

In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.

EDIT: To address some points:

I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.

This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.

I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.

The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.

reality-check technology alternate-history

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

edited 14 hours ago

elemtilas

9,42821948

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

asked 20 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
57 mins ago

add a comment |

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
57 mins ago

Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
57 mins ago

add a comment |

8 Answers
8

active

oldest

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up vote
16
down vote

The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.

Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels & stone.

Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

2

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

10

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

4

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

2

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

4

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

|
show 8 more comments

up vote
13
down vote

In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.

The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).

More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.

In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.

Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.

That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

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answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

add a comment |

up vote
12
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As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.

However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.

If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.

Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

4

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

2

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

3

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

2

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
10
down vote

What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?

Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.

Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.

Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.

Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.

Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.

But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.

But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
2
down vote

The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.

Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.

Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.

He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.

In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.

Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.

Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

1

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
0
down vote

Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.

Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

add a comment |

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8 Answers
8

active

oldest

votes

8 Answers
8

active

oldest

votes

up vote
16
down vote

The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

2

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

10

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

4

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

2

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

4

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

|
show 8 more comments

up vote
16
down vote

The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

2

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

10

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

4

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

2

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

4

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

|
show 8 more comments

up vote
16
down vote

The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

edited 16 hours ago

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

answered 20 hours ago

theRiley

1,35813

2

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

10

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

4

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

2

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

4

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

|
show 8 more comments

2

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

10

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

4

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

2

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

4

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
20 hours ago

write a better one.
– theRiley
20 hours ago

Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
19 hours ago

Just knowing iron-working is not enough. You also need to know what iron ore looks like and how to refine it - and Columbus' crew is unlikely to have those skills. There are iron deposits in Mexico, but I'm not sure if any of them were within the Aztec empire.
– WhatRoughBeast
18 hours ago

The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
15 hours ago

|
show 8 more comments

up vote
13
down vote

In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

add a comment |

up vote
13
down vote

In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

add a comment |

up vote
13
down vote

In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

edited 14 hours ago

Sava

1,069116

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

answered 15 hours ago

user535733

6,1351229

add a comment |

up vote
12
down vote

As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

4

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

2

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

3

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

2

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
12
down vote

As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

4

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

2

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

3

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

2

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
12
down vote

As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

edited 14 hours ago

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

answered 18 hours ago

Arkenstein XII

1,393218

4

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

2

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

3

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

2

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

add a comment |

4

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

2

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

3

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

2

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
7 hours ago

Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
5 hours ago

Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
4 hours ago

Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
3 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
10
down vote

What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?

Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.

Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.

Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.

Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.

But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
10
down vote

What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?

Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.

Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.

Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.

Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.

But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
10
down vote

What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?

Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.

Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.

Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.

Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.

But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?

Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.

Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.

Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.

Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.

But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

edited 8 hours ago

dbkk

1032

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

answered 20 hours ago

L.Dutch♦

69.5k21164333

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

add a comment |

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
2 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
2
down vote

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

add a comment |

up vote
2
down vote

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

add a comment |

up vote
2
down vote

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

answered 5 hours ago

Ash

25.8k465142

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

edited 17 hours ago

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

answered 19 hours ago

Artemijs Danilovs

3265

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

1

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

1

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
1
down vote

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

answered 7 hours ago

mg30rg

1,524819

1

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

add a comment |

1

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
4 hours ago

@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
4 hours ago

Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
4 hours ago

add a comment |

up vote
0
down vote

Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

add a comment |

up vote
0
down vote

Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

add a comment |

up vote
0
down vote

Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

answered 59 mins ago

Milo Bem

1011

New contributor

Milo Bem is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

add a comment |

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
52 mins ago

according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
35 mins ago

add a comment |

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