Prove that there is a first time the function is zero












0












$begingroup$


Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ be continuous and satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$.
Prove that there is a first time at which $ f $ is zero: that is, a number $s in (0, 1)$ with
$f(s) = 0$ but $f(t) not= 0$ if $t < s$.



I'm thinking of using the least upper bound property on the set and somehow proving it is $ 0 $ at the value?



Any hints?










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$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
    $endgroup$
    – астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
    $endgroup$
    – Aniruddha Deshmukh
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    @AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Jan 28 at 3:35






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48
















0












$begingroup$


Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ be continuous and satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$.
Prove that there is a first time at which $ f $ is zero: that is, a number $s in (0, 1)$ with
$f(s) = 0$ but $f(t) not= 0$ if $t < s$.



I'm thinking of using the least upper bound property on the set and somehow proving it is $ 0 $ at the value?



Any hints?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
    $endgroup$
    – астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
    $endgroup$
    – Aniruddha Deshmukh
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    @AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Jan 28 at 3:35






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48














0












0








0





$begingroup$


Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ be continuous and satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$.
Prove that there is a first time at which $ f $ is zero: that is, a number $s in (0, 1)$ with
$f(s) = 0$ but $f(t) not= 0$ if $t < s$.



I'm thinking of using the least upper bound property on the set and somehow proving it is $ 0 $ at the value?



Any hints?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ be continuous and satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$.
Prove that there is a first time at which $ f $ is zero: that is, a number $s in (0, 1)$ with
$f(s) = 0$ but $f(t) not= 0$ if $t < s$.



I'm thinking of using the least upper bound property on the set and somehow proving it is $ 0 $ at the value?



Any hints?







real-analysis continuity






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 28 at 3:36









user549397

1,5761418




1,5761418










asked Jan 28 at 3:14









Dis-integratingDis-integrating

1,037526




1,037526












  • $begingroup$
    You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
    $endgroup$
    – астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
    $endgroup$
    – Aniruddha Deshmukh
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    @AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Jan 28 at 3:35






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48


















  • $begingroup$
    You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
    $endgroup$
    – астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
    $endgroup$
    – Aniruddha Deshmukh
    Jan 28 at 3:20










  • $begingroup$
    @AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Jan 28 at 3:35






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
    $endgroup$
    – N. S.
    Jan 28 at 3:48
















$begingroup$
You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Jan 28 at 3:20




$begingroup$
You should use the supremum to come up with a candidate for "the first time at which $f$ is zero". Can you think of such a candidate?
$endgroup$
– астон вілла олоф мэллбэрг
Jan 28 at 3:20












$begingroup$
Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
$endgroup$
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Jan 28 at 3:20




$begingroup$
Intermediate Value Theorem tells us that there is at least one root. Now, can we prove that given this case, the function has at most countably many roots?
$endgroup$
– Aniruddha Deshmukh
Jan 28 at 3:20












$begingroup$
@AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Jan 28 at 3:35




$begingroup$
@AniruddhaDeshmukh no-one said anything about countably many roots and there's no reason to assume countablity. Consider $f(x) = 0$ for all $frac 14 le x le frac 34$ but $f(x) < 0$ for $x < frac 14$ and $f(x) > 0$ for $x >frac 34$. That has uncountably many roots but $x = frac 14$ is the least ("first") $x$ so that $f(x) = 0$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Jan 28 at 3:35




1




1




$begingroup$
Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Jan 28 at 3:48




$begingroup$
Somebody asked exactly the same question few hours ago: math.stackexchange.com/questions/3090223/…
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Jan 28 at 3:48




1




1




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Jan 28 at 3:48




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of A function is continuous. Let $f : [0, 1] to mathbb R$ satisfy $f(0) = −1$, $f(1) = 1$. Prove that there is a first time at which f is zero
$endgroup$
– N. S.
Jan 28 at 3:48










4 Answers
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$begingroup$

Suppose there is no first time. Then, for any $sin (0,1)$ such that $f(s)=0$ (why do you know that even one such $s$ exists?) there exists $s'<s$ such that $f(s')=0$ as well. We can keep doing this and get a decreasing sequence of points ${s_i}_{iinmathbb{N}}$. Does this sequence converge? How do convergent sequences behave with continuous functions?






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    We need the following fact: Since $f$ is continuous, the set $Z(f)={xin[0,1]:f(x)=0}$ is a closed set.



    It is non-empty by intermediate value theorem. Then $s=inf Z(f)=min Z(f)$ is the first time at which $f$ is zero. It is clear $sin (0,1)$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      For an argument from first principles, try defining
      $$
      S = {t in (0, 1) : f(x) < 0 text{ for all } x in [0, t) }.
      $$

      By the continuity of $f$ at $0$, $S$ is non-empty. By the continuity of $f$ at $1$, $S$ has an upper bound in $(0, 1)$. So $S$ has a least upper bound, $s in (0, 1)$. Now prove (i) $s in S$, (ii) $f(s) leqslant 0$, (iii) $f(s) geqslant 0$.



      (I hope this is OK. You asked for a "hint", so I've left plenty of details to fill in. It's possible I've fooled myself!)






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$





















        0












        $begingroup$

        We know $f(c) = 0$ for some $c in [0,1]$ by the Intermediate Value Theorem.



        So $S = {x|x in [0,1]; f(x) = 0}$ is not an empty set and it is bounded by $0, 1$. So $a=inf S$ exists.



        What is $f(a)$.



        Well $f(a) > 0$ is impossible because $f(0) < 0$ so by IVT there would be an $d; 0 < d < a$ so that $f(0)=0$. So $d in S$ but $d < inf S$ which is impossible.



        And $f(a)< 0$ is impossible because $f$ is continuous, and if we let $epsilon = |f(a)| > 0$ we can find a $delta > 0$ so the for all $c; a-delta < c < a+delta$ is well be true that $|f(c)- f(a)| < epsilon$. But that means $f(a) < f(c) < 0$ so $f(c)< 0$ for all such $c$. So if $d in S$ then $d ge a+delta$ and $a + delta$ is a lower bound of $S$, contradicting that $a = inf S$.



        So $f(a) = 0$ and no other value below is such.






        share|cite|improve this answer









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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          1












          $begingroup$

          Suppose there is no first time. Then, for any $sin (0,1)$ such that $f(s)=0$ (why do you know that even one such $s$ exists?) there exists $s'<s$ such that $f(s')=0$ as well. We can keep doing this and get a decreasing sequence of points ${s_i}_{iinmathbb{N}}$. Does this sequence converge? How do convergent sequences behave with continuous functions?






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$


















            1












            $begingroup$

            Suppose there is no first time. Then, for any $sin (0,1)$ such that $f(s)=0$ (why do you know that even one such $s$ exists?) there exists $s'<s$ such that $f(s')=0$ as well. We can keep doing this and get a decreasing sequence of points ${s_i}_{iinmathbb{N}}$. Does this sequence converge? How do convergent sequences behave with continuous functions?






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$
















              1












              1








              1





              $begingroup$

              Suppose there is no first time. Then, for any $sin (0,1)$ such that $f(s)=0$ (why do you know that even one such $s$ exists?) there exists $s'<s$ such that $f(s')=0$ as well. We can keep doing this and get a decreasing sequence of points ${s_i}_{iinmathbb{N}}$. Does this sequence converge? How do convergent sequences behave with continuous functions?






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Suppose there is no first time. Then, for any $sin (0,1)$ such that $f(s)=0$ (why do you know that even one such $s$ exists?) there exists $s'<s$ such that $f(s')=0$ as well. We can keep doing this and get a decreasing sequence of points ${s_i}_{iinmathbb{N}}$. Does this sequence converge? How do convergent sequences behave with continuous functions?







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Jan 28 at 3:22









              Anubhav NanavatyAnubhav Nanavaty

              714




              714























                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  We need the following fact: Since $f$ is continuous, the set $Z(f)={xin[0,1]:f(x)=0}$ is a closed set.



                  It is non-empty by intermediate value theorem. Then $s=inf Z(f)=min Z(f)$ is the first time at which $f$ is zero. It is clear $sin (0,1)$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    1












                    $begingroup$

                    We need the following fact: Since $f$ is continuous, the set $Z(f)={xin[0,1]:f(x)=0}$ is a closed set.



                    It is non-empty by intermediate value theorem. Then $s=inf Z(f)=min Z(f)$ is the first time at which $f$ is zero. It is clear $sin (0,1)$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$
















                      1












                      1








                      1





                      $begingroup$

                      We need the following fact: Since $f$ is continuous, the set $Z(f)={xin[0,1]:f(x)=0}$ is a closed set.



                      It is non-empty by intermediate value theorem. Then $s=inf Z(f)=min Z(f)$ is the first time at which $f$ is zero. It is clear $sin (0,1)$.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      We need the following fact: Since $f$ is continuous, the set $Z(f)={xin[0,1]:f(x)=0}$ is a closed set.



                      It is non-empty by intermediate value theorem. Then $s=inf Z(f)=min Z(f)$ is the first time at which $f$ is zero. It is clear $sin (0,1)$.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Jan 28 at 3:20









                      Eclipse SunEclipse Sun

                      7,8401438




                      7,8401438























                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          For an argument from first principles, try defining
                          $$
                          S = {t in (0, 1) : f(x) < 0 text{ for all } x in [0, t) }.
                          $$

                          By the continuity of $f$ at $0$, $S$ is non-empty. By the continuity of $f$ at $1$, $S$ has an upper bound in $(0, 1)$. So $S$ has a least upper bound, $s in (0, 1)$. Now prove (i) $s in S$, (ii) $f(s) leqslant 0$, (iii) $f(s) geqslant 0$.



                          (I hope this is OK. You asked for a "hint", so I've left plenty of details to fill in. It's possible I've fooled myself!)






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$


















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            For an argument from first principles, try defining
                            $$
                            S = {t in (0, 1) : f(x) < 0 text{ for all } x in [0, t) }.
                            $$

                            By the continuity of $f$ at $0$, $S$ is non-empty. By the continuity of $f$ at $1$, $S$ has an upper bound in $(0, 1)$. So $S$ has a least upper bound, $s in (0, 1)$. Now prove (i) $s in S$, (ii) $f(s) leqslant 0$, (iii) $f(s) geqslant 0$.



                            (I hope this is OK. You asked for a "hint", so I've left plenty of details to fill in. It's possible I've fooled myself!)






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$
















                              1












                              1








                              1





                              $begingroup$

                              For an argument from first principles, try defining
                              $$
                              S = {t in (0, 1) : f(x) < 0 text{ for all } x in [0, t) }.
                              $$

                              By the continuity of $f$ at $0$, $S$ is non-empty. By the continuity of $f$ at $1$, $S$ has an upper bound in $(0, 1)$. So $S$ has a least upper bound, $s in (0, 1)$. Now prove (i) $s in S$, (ii) $f(s) leqslant 0$, (iii) $f(s) geqslant 0$.



                              (I hope this is OK. You asked for a "hint", so I've left plenty of details to fill in. It's possible I've fooled myself!)






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              For an argument from first principles, try defining
                              $$
                              S = {t in (0, 1) : f(x) < 0 text{ for all } x in [0, t) }.
                              $$

                              By the continuity of $f$ at $0$, $S$ is non-empty. By the continuity of $f$ at $1$, $S$ has an upper bound in $(0, 1)$. So $S$ has a least upper bound, $s in (0, 1)$. Now prove (i) $s in S$, (ii) $f(s) leqslant 0$, (iii) $f(s) geqslant 0$.



                              (I hope this is OK. You asked for a "hint", so I've left plenty of details to fill in. It's possible I've fooled myself!)







                              share|cite|improve this answer












                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer










                              answered Jan 28 at 3:51









                              Calum GilhooleyCalum Gilhooley

                              5,119630




                              5,119630























                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  We know $f(c) = 0$ for some $c in [0,1]$ by the Intermediate Value Theorem.



                                  So $S = {x|x in [0,1]; f(x) = 0}$ is not an empty set and it is bounded by $0, 1$. So $a=inf S$ exists.



                                  What is $f(a)$.



                                  Well $f(a) > 0$ is impossible because $f(0) < 0$ so by IVT there would be an $d; 0 < d < a$ so that $f(0)=0$. So $d in S$ but $d < inf S$ which is impossible.



                                  And $f(a)< 0$ is impossible because $f$ is continuous, and if we let $epsilon = |f(a)| > 0$ we can find a $delta > 0$ so the for all $c; a-delta < c < a+delta$ is well be true that $|f(c)- f(a)| < epsilon$. But that means $f(a) < f(c) < 0$ so $f(c)< 0$ for all such $c$. So if $d in S$ then $d ge a+delta$ and $a + delta$ is a lower bound of $S$, contradicting that $a = inf S$.



                                  So $f(a) = 0$ and no other value below is such.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$


















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    We know $f(c) = 0$ for some $c in [0,1]$ by the Intermediate Value Theorem.



                                    So $S = {x|x in [0,1]; f(x) = 0}$ is not an empty set and it is bounded by $0, 1$. So $a=inf S$ exists.



                                    What is $f(a)$.



                                    Well $f(a) > 0$ is impossible because $f(0) < 0$ so by IVT there would be an $d; 0 < d < a$ so that $f(0)=0$. So $d in S$ but $d < inf S$ which is impossible.



                                    And $f(a)< 0$ is impossible because $f$ is continuous, and if we let $epsilon = |f(a)| > 0$ we can find a $delta > 0$ so the for all $c; a-delta < c < a+delta$ is well be true that $|f(c)- f(a)| < epsilon$. But that means $f(a) < f(c) < 0$ so $f(c)< 0$ for all such $c$. So if $d in S$ then $d ge a+delta$ and $a + delta$ is a lower bound of $S$, contradicting that $a = inf S$.



                                    So $f(a) = 0$ and no other value below is such.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$
















                                      0












                                      0








                                      0





                                      $begingroup$

                                      We know $f(c) = 0$ for some $c in [0,1]$ by the Intermediate Value Theorem.



                                      So $S = {x|x in [0,1]; f(x) = 0}$ is not an empty set and it is bounded by $0, 1$. So $a=inf S$ exists.



                                      What is $f(a)$.



                                      Well $f(a) > 0$ is impossible because $f(0) < 0$ so by IVT there would be an $d; 0 < d < a$ so that $f(0)=0$. So $d in S$ but $d < inf S$ which is impossible.



                                      And $f(a)< 0$ is impossible because $f$ is continuous, and if we let $epsilon = |f(a)| > 0$ we can find a $delta > 0$ so the for all $c; a-delta < c < a+delta$ is well be true that $|f(c)- f(a)| < epsilon$. But that means $f(a) < f(c) < 0$ so $f(c)< 0$ for all such $c$. So if $d in S$ then $d ge a+delta$ and $a + delta$ is a lower bound of $S$, contradicting that $a = inf S$.



                                      So $f(a) = 0$ and no other value below is such.






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                                      $endgroup$



                                      We know $f(c) = 0$ for some $c in [0,1]$ by the Intermediate Value Theorem.



                                      So $S = {x|x in [0,1]; f(x) = 0}$ is not an empty set and it is bounded by $0, 1$. So $a=inf S$ exists.



                                      What is $f(a)$.



                                      Well $f(a) > 0$ is impossible because $f(0) < 0$ so by IVT there would be an $d; 0 < d < a$ so that $f(0)=0$. So $d in S$ but $d < inf S$ which is impossible.



                                      And $f(a)< 0$ is impossible because $f$ is continuous, and if we let $epsilon = |f(a)| > 0$ we can find a $delta > 0$ so the for all $c; a-delta < c < a+delta$ is well be true that $|f(c)- f(a)| < epsilon$. But that means $f(a) < f(c) < 0$ so $f(c)< 0$ for all such $c$. So if $d in S$ then $d ge a+delta$ and $a + delta$ is a lower bound of $S$, contradicting that $a = inf S$.



                                      So $f(a) = 0$ and no other value below is such.







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered Jan 28 at 3:46









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