Number of possible zero entries in orthogonal matrices












3












$begingroup$


It's easy to check that in an orthogonal matrix $Q$ dimension $2 times 2$ if there is entry $0$ in the matrix then necessary one additional zero must be present and the total number of zeros is $2$.



In an orthogonal matrix dim. $3 times 3$ number of zeros can be (if they are present) , I suppose from observations, only $4$ or $6$ - once again we obtain an even number of possible zeros.



Examples:
$ begin{bmatrix}
0.6 & -0.8 & 0 \ 0.8 & 0.6 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 \
end{bmatrix} $
, $ begin{bmatrix} 0 & 0 & 1 \
1 & 0 & 0 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \
end{bmatrix}$




  • Can this observation be extended for other orthogonal matrices of
    greater dimensions? The number of zeros is always even? How to prove this?


  • Maybe, it is known the explicit formula for the number of possible zeros in orthogonal matrices of any dimension?











share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    3












    $begingroup$


    It's easy to check that in an orthogonal matrix $Q$ dimension $2 times 2$ if there is entry $0$ in the matrix then necessary one additional zero must be present and the total number of zeros is $2$.



    In an orthogonal matrix dim. $3 times 3$ number of zeros can be (if they are present) , I suppose from observations, only $4$ or $6$ - once again we obtain an even number of possible zeros.



    Examples:
    $ begin{bmatrix}
    0.6 & -0.8 & 0 \ 0.8 & 0.6 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 \
    end{bmatrix} $
    , $ begin{bmatrix} 0 & 0 & 1 \
    1 & 0 & 0 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \
    end{bmatrix}$




    • Can this observation be extended for other orthogonal matrices of
      greater dimensions? The number of zeros is always even? How to prove this?


    • Maybe, it is known the explicit formula for the number of possible zeros in orthogonal matrices of any dimension?











    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      3












      3








      3





      $begingroup$


      It's easy to check that in an orthogonal matrix $Q$ dimension $2 times 2$ if there is entry $0$ in the matrix then necessary one additional zero must be present and the total number of zeros is $2$.



      In an orthogonal matrix dim. $3 times 3$ number of zeros can be (if they are present) , I suppose from observations, only $4$ or $6$ - once again we obtain an even number of possible zeros.



      Examples:
      $ begin{bmatrix}
      0.6 & -0.8 & 0 \ 0.8 & 0.6 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 \
      end{bmatrix} $
      , $ begin{bmatrix} 0 & 0 & 1 \
      1 & 0 & 0 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \
      end{bmatrix}$




      • Can this observation be extended for other orthogonal matrices of
        greater dimensions? The number of zeros is always even? How to prove this?


      • Maybe, it is known the explicit formula for the number of possible zeros in orthogonal matrices of any dimension?











      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      It's easy to check that in an orthogonal matrix $Q$ dimension $2 times 2$ if there is entry $0$ in the matrix then necessary one additional zero must be present and the total number of zeros is $2$.



      In an orthogonal matrix dim. $3 times 3$ number of zeros can be (if they are present) , I suppose from observations, only $4$ or $6$ - once again we obtain an even number of possible zeros.



      Examples:
      $ begin{bmatrix}
      0.6 & -0.8 & 0 \ 0.8 & 0.6 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 \
      end{bmatrix} $
      , $ begin{bmatrix} 0 & 0 & 1 \
      1 & 0 & 0 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \
      end{bmatrix}$




      • Can this observation be extended for other orthogonal matrices of
        greater dimensions? The number of zeros is always even? How to prove this?


      • Maybe, it is known the explicit formula for the number of possible zeros in orthogonal matrices of any dimension?








      linear-algebra matrices orthogonal-matrices






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Jan 29 at 18:00







      Widawensen

















      asked Jan 29 at 16:42









      WidawensenWidawensen

      4,74831446




      4,74831446






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3












          $begingroup$

          An interesting observation, but it doesn't pan out unfortunately! It already fails in dimension 3. Wikipedia has the following counterexample of a rotoinversion:
          $$
          begin{bmatrix}
          0 & -0.8 & - 0.6 \
          0.8 & -0.36 & 0.48 \
          0.6&0.48&-0.64
          end{bmatrix}
          $$



          (WolframAlpha agrees that this is indeed orthogonal, the example is from
          here)






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 11:59








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:09












          • $begingroup$
            What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:13






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:17












          • $begingroup$
            I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:27





















          0












          $begingroup$

          Rotations are orthogonal. Most examples of rotation matrices in any dimension will provide a counter example to this. In the $2 times 2$ case consider
          $$begin{pmatrix}
          Cos(x)&-Sin(x)\
          Sin(x)&Cos(x)
          end{pmatrix}$$

          This is orthogonal for any $x$. There are many cases where there are no zeros.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:03












          Your Answer





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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3












          $begingroup$

          An interesting observation, but it doesn't pan out unfortunately! It already fails in dimension 3. Wikipedia has the following counterexample of a rotoinversion:
          $$
          begin{bmatrix}
          0 & -0.8 & - 0.6 \
          0.8 & -0.36 & 0.48 \
          0.6&0.48&-0.64
          end{bmatrix}
          $$



          (WolframAlpha agrees that this is indeed orthogonal, the example is from
          here)






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 11:59








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:09












          • $begingroup$
            What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:13






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:17












          • $begingroup$
            I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:27


















          3












          $begingroup$

          An interesting observation, but it doesn't pan out unfortunately! It already fails in dimension 3. Wikipedia has the following counterexample of a rotoinversion:
          $$
          begin{bmatrix}
          0 & -0.8 & - 0.6 \
          0.8 & -0.36 & 0.48 \
          0.6&0.48&-0.64
          end{bmatrix}
          $$



          (WolframAlpha agrees that this is indeed orthogonal, the example is from
          here)






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 11:59








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:09












          • $begingroup$
            What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:13






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:17












          • $begingroup$
            I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:27
















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          An interesting observation, but it doesn't pan out unfortunately! It already fails in dimension 3. Wikipedia has the following counterexample of a rotoinversion:
          $$
          begin{bmatrix}
          0 & -0.8 & - 0.6 \
          0.8 & -0.36 & 0.48 \
          0.6&0.48&-0.64
          end{bmatrix}
          $$



          (WolframAlpha agrees that this is indeed orthogonal, the example is from
          here)






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          An interesting observation, but it doesn't pan out unfortunately! It already fails in dimension 3. Wikipedia has the following counterexample of a rotoinversion:
          $$
          begin{bmatrix}
          0 & -0.8 & - 0.6 \
          0.8 & -0.36 & 0.48 \
          0.6&0.48&-0.64
          end{bmatrix}
          $$



          (WolframAlpha agrees that this is indeed orthogonal, the example is from
          here)







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Jan 29 at 20:40

























          answered Jan 29 at 20:35









          ffffforallffffforall

          36028




          36028












          • $begingroup$
            Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 11:59








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:09












          • $begingroup$
            What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:13






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:17












          • $begingroup$
            I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:27




















          • $begingroup$
            Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 11:59








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:09












          • $begingroup$
            What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:13






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
            $endgroup$
            – ffffforall
            Jan 30 at 12:17












          • $begingroup$
            I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:27


















          $begingroup$
          Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 11:59






          $begingroup$
          Surprising example! Do you think that existence of such example is possible only for number of zeros $1$ or that also be possible to find, for example, for number $3$ or $5$? Can we show the all numbers for dimension $3$?
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 11:59






          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
          $endgroup$
          – ffffforall
          Jan 30 at 12:09






          $begingroup$
          I don't think 3 zeros are possible in the 3-dimensional case. The column vectors form an orthonormal basis. If one vector has two zeros (and hence is a standard unit vector) , then the other have either two or none, by the same argument as in the 2-dimensional case. Otherwise they would all have one zero each, so the matrix would have to act on each standard unit vector as a rotoinversion restricted to a plane, which I don't think works.
          $endgroup$
          – ffffforall
          Jan 30 at 12:09














          $begingroup$
          What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:13




          $begingroup$
          What about $5$? Probably also not. It 's hard also for me to find an example with number of zeros $2$..
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:13




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
          $endgroup$
          – ffffforall
          Jan 30 at 12:17






          $begingroup$
          5 zeros are impossible (for the 3-dimensional case). If the matrix has at least 5 zeros, then two of the column vectors must be standard unit vectors (up to sign). But then this forces the remaining column to also be a standard unit vector (up to sign), so that they form an orthonormal basis.
          $endgroup$
          – ffffforall
          Jan 30 at 12:17














          $begingroup$
          I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:27






          $begingroup$
          I see that your counterexample give some insight for constructions of matrices with ($k_z=1$) : the first column is $ [0 a b ]^T$ , the second $ [-a -b^2 ab ]^T$, the third $ [-b ab -a^2 ]^T$ with additional condition $a^2+b^2=1$
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:27













          0












          $begingroup$

          Rotations are orthogonal. Most examples of rotation matrices in any dimension will provide a counter example to this. In the $2 times 2$ case consider
          $$begin{pmatrix}
          Cos(x)&-Sin(x)\
          Sin(x)&Cos(x)
          end{pmatrix}$$

          This is orthogonal for any $x$. There are many cases where there are no zeros.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:03
















          0












          $begingroup$

          Rotations are orthogonal. Most examples of rotation matrices in any dimension will provide a counter example to this. In the $2 times 2$ case consider
          $$begin{pmatrix}
          Cos(x)&-Sin(x)\
          Sin(x)&Cos(x)
          end{pmatrix}$$

          This is orthogonal for any $x$. There are many cases where there are no zeros.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:03














          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          Rotations are orthogonal. Most examples of rotation matrices in any dimension will provide a counter example to this. In the $2 times 2$ case consider
          $$begin{pmatrix}
          Cos(x)&-Sin(x)\
          Sin(x)&Cos(x)
          end{pmatrix}$$

          This is orthogonal for any $x$. There are many cases where there are no zeros.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Rotations are orthogonal. Most examples of rotation matrices in any dimension will provide a counter example to this. In the $2 times 2$ case consider
          $$begin{pmatrix}
          Cos(x)&-Sin(x)\
          Sin(x)&Cos(x)
          end{pmatrix}$$

          This is orthogonal for any $x$. There are many cases where there are no zeros.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Jan 29 at 21:04









          WintermuteWintermute

          2,35441832




          2,35441832












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:03


















          • $begingroup$
            Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
            $endgroup$
            – Widawensen
            Jan 30 at 12:03
















          $begingroup$
          Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:03




          $begingroup$
          Thank you Wintermute for the answer, but the question was for possible number of $0$ when they exist. In dimension of matrix $2$ it is only one possible number $2$.
          $endgroup$
          – Widawensen
          Jan 30 at 12:03


















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