Existence of a strictly increasing transformation between two functions [closed]
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Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement
$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$
My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.
Any suggestions?
derivatives transformation monotone-functions
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closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber♦ Jan 30 at 1:12
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement
$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$
My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.
Any suggestions?
derivatives transformation monotone-functions
$endgroup$
closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber♦ Jan 30 at 1:12
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
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We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
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– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement
$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$
My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.
Any suggestions?
derivatives transformation monotone-functions
$endgroup$
Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement
$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$
My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.
Any suggestions?
derivatives transformation monotone-functions
derivatives transformation monotone-functions
edited Jan 29 at 14:31


Arthur
121k7121207
121k7121207
asked Jan 29 at 14:24
StMaStMa
134
134
closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber♦ Jan 30 at 1:12
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber♦ Jan 30 at 1:12
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31
$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31
$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
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Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.
Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.
I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.
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You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
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– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
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Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
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– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
add a comment |
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Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.
Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$.
The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.
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Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
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– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
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@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
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– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
add a comment |
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To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:
Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then
$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$
Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.
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add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.
Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.
I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.
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You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
$endgroup$
– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
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Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.
Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.
I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
$endgroup$
– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
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Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.
Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.
I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.
$endgroup$
Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.
Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.
I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.
edited Jan 29 at 14:58
answered Jan 29 at 14:40
Floris ClaassensFloris Claassens
1,21527
1,21527
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You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
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– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
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Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
$endgroup$
– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
$begingroup$
Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
$begingroup$
You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
$endgroup$
– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
$begingroup$
You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
$endgroup$
– Floris Claassens
Jan 29 at 14:59
$begingroup$
Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
$begingroup$
Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
$endgroup$
– StMa
Jan 29 at 16:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.
Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$.
The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.
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$begingroup$
Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
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@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.
Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$.
The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
$begingroup$
@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.
Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$.
The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.
$endgroup$
Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.
Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$.
The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.
answered Jan 29 at 15:02


copper.hatcopper.hat
128k560161
128k560161
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Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
$begingroup$
@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
$begingroup$
@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
$begingroup$
Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
$begingroup$
Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
$endgroup$
– Bertrand
Jan 29 at 15:30
1
1
$begingroup$
@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
$begingroup$
@Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
$endgroup$
– copper.hat
Jan 29 at 15:55
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:
Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then
$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$
Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:
Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then
$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$
Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:
Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then
$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$
Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.
$endgroup$
To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:
Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then
$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$
Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.
answered Jan 29 at 20:43
BertrandBertrand
45815
45815
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31