Existence of a strictly increasing transformation between two functions [closed]












2












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Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement



$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$



My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.



Any suggestions?










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closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber Jan 30 at 1:12


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
















  • $begingroup$
    We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Jan 29 at 14:31


















2












$begingroup$


Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement



$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$



My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.



Any suggestions?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$



closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber Jan 30 at 1:12


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
















  • $begingroup$
    We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Jan 29 at 14:31
















2












2








2





$begingroup$


Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement



$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$



My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.



Any suggestions?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Assume $f$ and $g$ are two differentiable functions defined on a compact interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . I want to proof or disproof the following statement



$ forall x in X: operatorname{sign}(f'(x))=operatorname{sign}(g'(x));; implies exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$, strictly increasing s.t. $f=m circ g$



My attempts raised the elementary question which conditions on arbitrary $f,g$ are in general sufficient for the existence of an $m$ such that $f=m circ g$.



Any suggestions?







derivatives transformation monotone-functions






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 29 at 14:31









Arthur

121k7121207




121k7121207










asked Jan 29 at 14:24









StMaStMa

134




134




closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber Jan 30 at 1:12


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.







closed as off-topic by Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber Jan 30 at 1:12


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "This question is missing context or other details: Please provide additional context, which ideally explains why the question is relevant to you and our community. Some forms of context include: background and motivation, relevant definitions, source, possible strategies, your current progress, why the question is interesting or important, etc." – Frpzzd, max_zorn, Alexander Gruber

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.












  • $begingroup$
    We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Jan 29 at 14:31




















  • $begingroup$
    We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Jan 29 at 14:31


















$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31






$begingroup$
We usually put $forall x$ in front of whatever statement it applies to. Not when using words, but when using symbols.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Jan 29 at 14:31












3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

Counter-example:
Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.



Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.



I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
    $endgroup$
    – Floris Claassens
    Jan 29 at 14:59










  • $begingroup$
    Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
    $endgroup$
    – StMa
    Jan 29 at 16:16



















1












$begingroup$

Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.



Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
-2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$
.



The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Bertrand
    Jan 29 at 15:30






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
    $endgroup$
    – copper.hat
    Jan 29 at 15:55



















0












$begingroup$

To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:



Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then



$ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$



Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    1












    $begingroup$

    Counter-example:
    Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
    Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.



    Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.



    I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
      $endgroup$
      – Floris Claassens
      Jan 29 at 14:59










    • $begingroup$
      Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
      $endgroup$
      – StMa
      Jan 29 at 16:16
















    1












    $begingroup$

    Counter-example:
    Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
    Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.



    Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.



    I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
      $endgroup$
      – Floris Claassens
      Jan 29 at 14:59










    • $begingroup$
      Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
      $endgroup$
      – StMa
      Jan 29 at 16:16














    1












    1








    1





    $begingroup$

    Counter-example:
    Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
    Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.



    Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.



    I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Counter-example:
    Let $f(x)=frac{1}{3}x^{3}-pi x^{2}+frac{3}{4}pi^{2} x$ and let $g(x)=sin(x)$ on the interval [0,2pi].
    Note that $f'(x)=x^{2}-2pi x+frac{3}{4}pi^{2}=(x-frac{1}{2}pi)(x-frac{3}{2}pi)$ so $f'(x)<0$ if $0leq x<frac{1}{2}pi$ and $frac{3}{2}pi<xleq 2pi$ and $f'(x)>0$ if $frac{1}{2}pi<x<frac{3}{2}pi$ which corresponds with $g'(x)$.



    Now suppose a transformation function exists, then $0=f(0)=m(g(0))=m(0)$ and $frac{1}{12}pi^{3}=f(pi)=m(g(pi))=m(0)$. This is a contradiction.



    I believe it should work if $f$ and $g$ are both strictly increasing.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Jan 29 at 14:58

























    answered Jan 29 at 14:40









    Floris ClaassensFloris Claassens

    1,21527




    1,21527












    • $begingroup$
      You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
      $endgroup$
      – Floris Claassens
      Jan 29 at 14:59










    • $begingroup$
      Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
      $endgroup$
      – StMa
      Jan 29 at 16:16


















    • $begingroup$
      You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
      $endgroup$
      – Floris Claassens
      Jan 29 at 14:59










    • $begingroup$
      Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
      $endgroup$
      – StMa
      Jan 29 at 16:16
















    $begingroup$
    You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
    $endgroup$
    – Floris Claassens
    Jan 29 at 14:59




    $begingroup$
    You're right, thank you. I've adjusted my example to ensure the signs are the same.
    $endgroup$
    – Floris Claassens
    Jan 29 at 14:59












    $begingroup$
    Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
    $endgroup$
    – StMa
    Jan 29 at 16:16




    $begingroup$
    Thanks a lot! I got the intuition why the statement cannot hold
    $endgroup$
    – StMa
    Jan 29 at 16:16











    1












    $begingroup$

    Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.



    Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
    -2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$
    .



    The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
      $endgroup$
      – Bertrand
      Jan 29 at 15:30






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
      $endgroup$
      – copper.hat
      Jan 29 at 15:55
















    1












    $begingroup$

    Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.



    Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
    -2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$
    .



    The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
      $endgroup$
      – Bertrand
      Jan 29 at 15:30






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
      $endgroup$
      – copper.hat
      Jan 29 at 15:55














    1












    1








    1





    $begingroup$

    Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.



    Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
    -2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$
    .



    The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Let $I=[-{pi over 3} , {pi over 3}]$.



    Let $f = cos$, and let $g(x) = begin{cases} -x^2,& x le 0 \
    -2x^2, & text{otherwise}end{cases}$
    .



    The sign of derivative condition is satisfied, but $f$ is even and $g$ is not.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Jan 29 at 15:02









    copper.hatcopper.hat

    128k560161




    128k560161












    • $begingroup$
      Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
      $endgroup$
      – Bertrand
      Jan 29 at 15:30






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
      $endgroup$
      – copper.hat
      Jan 29 at 15:55


















    • $begingroup$
      Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
      $endgroup$
      – Bertrand
      Jan 29 at 15:30






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
      $endgroup$
      – copper.hat
      Jan 29 at 15:55
















    $begingroup$
    Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Bertrand
    Jan 29 at 15:30




    $begingroup$
    Why should $m$ not exist in this case? It can be defined differently for $x leq 0$ and $x>0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Bertrand
    Jan 29 at 15:30




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
    $endgroup$
    – copper.hat
    Jan 29 at 15:55




    $begingroup$
    @Bertrand: If such a function existed we would have $g(-1) = -1, g(1) = -2$. $f(-1) = m(-1) = f(1) = m(-2)$. Hence $m$ is not injective.
    $endgroup$
    – copper.hat
    Jan 29 at 15:55











    0












    $begingroup$

    To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:



    Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then



    $ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$



    Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      0












      $begingroup$

      To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:



      Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then



      $ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$



      Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:



        Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then



        $ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$



        Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        To summarize this discussion, now that the initial claim has been disproved, it may be interesting to compare it with a case which works. May be this one:



        Assume that $f$ and $g$ are one to one, defined on an interval $X subseteq mathbb{R}$ mapping into $mathbb{R}$ . Then



        $ forall x in X, exists ;; m: mathbb{R} to mathbb{R}$ s.t. $f=m circ g$



        Proof. If $g$ is one to one, then $g^{-1}$ exists and $m equiv f circ g^{-1}$ satisfies $m circ g = f$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Jan 29 at 20:43









        BertrandBertrand

        45815




        45815















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