Prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$ without using...












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I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.



I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.



Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.



Proof:
Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.



Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?










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    I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.



    I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.



    Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.



    Proof:
    Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
    Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.



    Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      0












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      0





      $begingroup$


      I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.



      I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.



      Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.



      Proof:
      Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
      Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.



      Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.



      I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.



      Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.



      Proof:
      Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
      Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.



      Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?







      real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum






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      edited Jan 27 at 22:39









      J. W. Tanner

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      asked Jan 27 at 21:49









      jajajaja

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          $begingroup$

          In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.



          In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.






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            $begingroup$
            (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
            $endgroup$
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Jan 27 at 23:47



















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          $begingroup$

          Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$






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          • $begingroup$
            Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – jaja
            Jan 28 at 0:00



















          1












          $begingroup$

          Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.



          So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.



          If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.



          $frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$



          $frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$



          $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.



          Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:



          $k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.



          So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.



          And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.






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            3 Answers
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            $begingroup$

            In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.



            In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









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            • 1




              $begingroup$
              (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
              $endgroup$
              – Calum Gilhooley
              Jan 27 at 23:47
















            1












            $begingroup$

            In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.



            In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
              $endgroup$
              – Calum Gilhooley
              Jan 27 at 23:47














            1












            1








            1





            $begingroup$

            In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.



            In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.



            In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Jan 27 at 23:44









            Calum GilhooleyCalum Gilhooley

            5,119630




            5,119630








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
              $endgroup$
              – Calum Gilhooley
              Jan 27 at 23:47














            • 1




              $begingroup$
              (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
              $endgroup$
              – Calum Gilhooley
              Jan 27 at 23:47








            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
            $endgroup$
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Jan 27 at 23:47




            $begingroup$
            (I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
            $endgroup$
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Jan 27 at 23:47











            4












            $begingroup$

            Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
              $endgroup$
              – jaja
              Jan 28 at 0:00
















            4












            $begingroup$

            Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
              $endgroup$
              – jaja
              Jan 28 at 0:00














            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Jan 27 at 21:56









            José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos

            170k23132238




            170k23132238












            • $begingroup$
              Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
              $endgroup$
              – jaja
              Jan 28 at 0:00


















            • $begingroup$
              Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
              $endgroup$
              – jaja
              Jan 28 at 0:00
















            $begingroup$
            Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – jaja
            Jan 28 at 0:00




            $begingroup$
            Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – jaja
            Jan 28 at 0:00











            1












            $begingroup$

            Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.



            So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.



            If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.



            $frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$



            $frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$



            $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.



            Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:



            $k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.



            So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.



            And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              1












              $begingroup$

              Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.



              So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.



              If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.



              $frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$



              $frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$



              $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.



              Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:



              $k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.



              So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.



              And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                1












                1








                1





                $begingroup$

                Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.



                So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.



                If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.



                $frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$



                $frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$



                $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.



                Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:



                $k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.



                So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.



                And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.



                So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.



                If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.



                $frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$



                $frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$



                $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.



                Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:



                $k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.



                So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.



                And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Jan 27 at 22:11









                fleabloodfleablood

                73.4k22791




                73.4k22791






























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