Prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$ without using...
$begingroup$
I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.
I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.
Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.
Proof:
Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.
Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?
real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.
I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.
Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.
Proof:
Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.
Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?
real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.
I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.
Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.
Proof:
Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.
Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?
real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum
$endgroup$
I’m trying to prove that the supremum of this set is $frac{1}{4}$: $S={frac{n-1}{4n+1}: n in mathbb{N}}$, without using limits.
I can easily show that $frac{1}{4}$ is an upper bound, but I have trouble showing that it is the least upper bound.
Strategy: 1) show it’s an upper bound by contradiction. 2) then, show that if there existed a lower bound $k$ that was strictly less than $frac{1}{4}$, then it wouldn’t be an upper bound because we could find an $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ was greater than that upper bound. Do this by setting $frac{n-1}{4n+1}=1/4$, and then solving for $n$, as a function of $k$ and then incrementing it by one, and then showing that if we let $n$ = the function of $k$ incremented by one, then it would be greater than the upper bound $k$.
Proof:
Assume for contradiction that $frac{1}{4}$ is not an upper bound, then there exists $n$ such that $frac{n-1}{4n+1} > frac{1}{4}$, then since $4n+1 > 0$, $-4>1$ which is a contradiction. So it is an upper bound.
Assume for contradiction that there exists $k$ such that $k < frac{1}{4}$ and $k$ is an upper bound for $S$. Then since it’s an upper bound, $frac{n-1}{4n+1} le k$, which means $n le frac{k+1}{1-4 k }$, since $1-4k ge 0$.
Now I’m not sure where to go from here. I really want to use the Archimedean property, but since I need $n$ to be in $mathbb{N}$, I’m not sure if it is acceptable to use that. I’m also not sure what I can increment $n$ by as a function of $k$ in order to guarantee that it will still be in $mathbb{N}$. Can I get some hints maybe?
real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum
real-analysis analysis supremum-and-infimum
edited Jan 27 at 22:39
J. W. Tanner
3,8871320
3,8871320
asked Jan 27 at 21:49
jajajaja
8711
8711
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3 Answers
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In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.
In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
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1
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(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
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– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
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Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$
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Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
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– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
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Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.
So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.
If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.
$frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$
$frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$
$n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.
Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:
$k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.
So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.
In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.
In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.
In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
$endgroup$
In (1), the argument by contradiction is unnecessarily complicated. Instead, one could argue more simply that the numerator of $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ is $< n$, and its denominator is $> 4n$, so this arbitrary element of $S$ is $< frac{n}{4n} = frac{1}{4}$.
In (2), appealing directly to the Archimedean property as you suggest (but also eschewing an argument by contradiction for a second time): given any $k < frac{1}{4}$, there exists a positive integer $n$ such that $nleft(frac{1}{4} - kright) > 1$, i.e. such that $k < frac{1}{4} - frac{1}{n} = frac{n-4}{4n}$. Conveniently, this fraction happens to be less than the element $frac{n-1}{4n+1}$ of $S$ (indeed, it is less than $frac{n-3}{4n+1}$, by the result that $frac{a}{b} < frac{a+1}{b+1}$ if $a < b$ and $b > 0$), so $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
answered Jan 27 at 23:44
Calum GilhooleyCalum Gilhooley
5,119630
5,119630
1
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
1
1
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
$begingroup$
(I'm braced for a ticking-off from @fleablood, for indulging in unnecessary cheese-paring!) :)
$endgroup$
– Calum Gilhooley
Jan 27 at 23:47
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$
$endgroup$
Note that$$frac14-frac{n-1}{4n+1}=frac5{4(4n+1)}$$and$$frac5{4(4n+1)}<varepsiloniff n>frac{5-4varepsilon}{16varepsilon}.$$
answered Jan 27 at 21:56
José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos
170k23132238
170k23132238
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Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
$begingroup$
Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
$begingroup$
Thanks. However, that doesn't show me a methodical way of reaching that conclusion.
$endgroup$
– jaja
Jan 28 at 0:00
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.
So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.
If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.
$frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$
$frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$
$n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.
Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:
$k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.
So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.
So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.
If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.
$frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$
$frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$
$n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.
Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:
$k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.
So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.
So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.
If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.
$frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$
$frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$
$n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.
Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:
$k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.
So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.
$endgroup$
Well, if $s = frac {n-1}{4n+1} in S; nin mathbb N$ then $frac {n-1}{4n+1} = frac {n+frac 14}{4n+1} - frac {frac 54}{4n+1} = frac 14 - frac {5}{16n + 4}< frac 14$.
So $frac 14$ is an upperbound of $S$.
If $k < frac 14$ and if $epsilon = frac 14 -k>0$.
$frac 5{16n + 4} < epsilon iff$
$frac 5{epsilon} < 16n + 4 iff$
$n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$.
Such an $n$ can always be found and if we let $n > frac {frac 5epsilon -4}{16}$ we will have:
$k = frac 14 - epsilon < frac 14 - frac 5{16n+4} =frac {n-1}{4n+1}in S$.
So $k$ is not an upper bound of $S$.
And that is the definition of least upper bound. So $frac 14 =sup S$.
answered Jan 27 at 22:11
fleabloodfleablood
73.4k22791
73.4k22791
add a comment |
add a comment |
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